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A good way to mix flesh tones...
VTA
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in Color Mixing
Hello all, I'm new here and after a search and quick look I'm not finding a thread which might help me.
I imagine this a pretty redundant question in a painting forum, and if a thread exists, just tell me to shut up and point me to it.
I'm looking for advice on mixing flesh tones. Mine always, without fail end up coming out too tan and I can't avoid it. I've tried different combinations and have tried neutralizing the tones with either sap green or ultramarine blue. I normally start with raw umber and take it up with naples yellow or yellow ochre and white, using venetian red for rosier tones, then neutralize it with either sap green or ultramarine blue.
What do you folks use? Any advice appreciated.
Thanks.
-Vincent
I imagine this a pretty redundant question in a painting forum, and if a thread exists, just tell me to shut up and point me to it.
I'm looking for advice on mixing flesh tones. Mine always, without fail end up coming out too tan and I can't avoid it. I've tried different combinations and have tried neutralizing the tones with either sap green or ultramarine blue. I normally start with raw umber and take it up with naples yellow or yellow ochre and white, using venetian red for rosier tones, then neutralize it with either sap green or ultramarine blue.
What do you folks use? Any advice appreciated.
Thanks.
-Vincent
Comments
I used to make a full range of flesh colors for Caucasian, African American/ African or Hispanic skin tones using Rembrandt Brown Madder Alizarin, Thalo Yellow green and white. I used Ultramarine Blue as a modifier for Sometimes a little Cad Lemon on some oriental and Nordic skin tones, but both the blue and yellow were used very sparingly. It was so versatile, and could be manipulated in color, value and temperature. I think evey figure painter I knew used this combination more often than not. But for some reason Talens, makers of Rembrandt oils stopped making it. I'm surprise the country did not hear the collective scream from artists who painted figures. It wasn't our only mix, but it was a great one. I could do two different paintings and just moving towards the Brown Madder Alizarin or towards the yellow green or the two modifiers and white, I could paint totally different skin tones.
A good commonly and fairly versatile mix is Cad Red Light, Yellow Ochre and either Ultramarine or a mixed green of Cad. Yellow added to the blue and then used sparingly in the red yellow white mixture. Personally, I would prefer a clean Permanent Green light instead or Thalo Yellow green You could also use Alizarin Crimson instead, for your red, or W/N Permanent Rose or Winsor Red. Anders Zorn Made beautiful skin tones with Cad. Red, Yellow Ochre and black and white! I could go on all night, but my best recommendation is to find a combination that works on one painting you are doing at a time and stick with it. The next one will likely need another different combination. What Mark recommends is your best starting point. Keep it simple and you will be much happier just starting out.
Flesh tones are no different whatsoever than any other colors.
Still can not think of a single reason to use any color outside the primaries plus white and brown.
I can mix anyone of those colors you mention with the five I use.
Am I getting it correct, in reading your post Mark, that I can use Cad Yellow, Cad Red, UltraM Blue and White, with an Umber for the deeps?
I'm generally thinking neutral skin tones and if a light mood is needed, a value scale of that light mood next to it on the pallette. I'm always hesitant with blue, because I'm worried about getting some death like pallor, and over compensate with the reds.
And I'm not sure about the six questions reference, is that in the video?
Thanks for your replies.
-V
I am not talking about extreme colors here, like traffic cone hot fluorescent red. If you are doing work with extreme colors like that then you will need those extreme colors.
But any other color I can mix PERFECTLY with my five (plus phthalo blue and cad red when rarely needed).
Is it too red
Is it too blue
Is it too yellow
Is it too purple
Is it too green
Is it too orange
Then you mix in the color on the opposite side of the color wheel from the color you answer "yes" to. This was in the "painting in oil" video I believe....or maybe the "using s color checker". Cant remember. Watch them all!
More blue means the same thing as less orange, more red means the same thing as less green, and so on (opposites on the color wheel). Why is blue the opposite of orange, for instance? Because there are three primary colors: blue, yellow, and red. Orange is made of yellow and red, so naturally the opposite of something that is everything except blue, is of course blue.
In short there is a very, very basic "science" behind colors you need to know for painting. All you need is to learn that (which Mark explains in his free videos) and then get advice from him and others about techniques in applying that science, which Mark explains very simply in the color mixing videos.
Don't associate certain objects and surfaces (such as flesh) with specific colors or pigments. Keep it simple — simple is better. Flesh colors can be all over the color wheel. Look at Madame X. And forget pigments. Just think "blue, yellow, red, white, brown". You'll need good pigments for each of those colors. Mark has recommendations on his supply list page: drawmixpaint.com/supplylist
I have no desire to argue with you. We need to agree to disagree, but I am not a hack playing around and trying to act like a know it all. I am far from being the best artist in the world, but limiting a palette is an excellent way of painting, but it's very name tells you something. It is limited. Theoretically we should be able to make any color from the three primaries, but we all know that does not work. It only works with light, but we don't paint with light. There has to be substitutions, and modifiers at times. I have mentioned Anders Zorn a number of times. That is one of the premier limited palettes and yet even he would have agreed with what I am saying here.
I have done nothing on this site but support you and your methods. I have held my tongue more times than I can count, not from your comments, but others. Now this is a second disagreement we are having and normally I would say fine. I do not come on sites like this for any reason other than maybe learning something and helping others. I have no desire to undermine anything you have here with your methods, teaching or anything else. So if you would prefer I do not offer any help to others, just say the word. If I had the computer equipment to do a hangout with you, I would love to debate you on these issues and a few visual aids, but I don't have them. Sorry. It is your site so you say what you prefer.
With all respect,
AZPainter
I think the next time a member here jumps on someone for not preaching the Carder Orthodoxy I'm going to add my 2¢ to the discussion, because clearly it's set a tone where some people feel uncomfortable just talking about art without worrying constantly, which is not what we want.
AZ, show me the Grand Canyon sunrise color I can not mix.
And AZ, don't take it personal, nothing wrong with a good debate.
Come to Arizona, since I can't bring the Canyon to you, and I guarantee you won't be able to match the colors I can show you with your palette without adding or substituting a color or two. Heck I can do it in my studio with a model in natural north light. Not being a smartalec or insulting, just stating fact. I have a model, a redhead, that has a under color in her skin color that is almost pearlescent and trust me, your palette will not come close to it. There are greens, grays and pinks in it that just are not on the Carder Palette or mixed with it. What is the problem with adjusting to fit the subject? I am saying this while admitting as I have done many times here. I have used your palette or very similar (substituting Burnt Sienna for Burnt Umber) for years. The thing is I do not chain myself to this palette just to prove a point when one change can make all the difference in the world.
I am not here to argue or create any sort of discomfort or uneasiness for anyone. What's funny to me is, we agree on much more than we disagree with. I have only said there are many colors to make skin color and at the same time I recommended using your method. I only spoke the truth. You recently said you would debate me forever or good luck trying to convince you about rules in art and yet it seems this palette is one rule that must stand. So which is it? Rules? or No rules? (Speaking of art)
I believe in all kinds of rules, for instance, yellow plus red makes orange, this is a fact. If I believe a fact is true, should I not say so?
It is also a fact that I can mix ANY red head flesh tone, or ANY Grand Canyon color. Mail me a swatch of this special Grand Canyon color you are talking about. I will send an EXACT duplicate back to you in the mail made with my pallet. I am serious, mail it to me.
There is definitely only one answer to the question "is Mark's palette capable of mixing all the colors AZPainter's palette is capable of mixing" simply because that's a yes or no question, so there's no way around that. The only way to find out definitively after both sides have stated their claim is to test it out. You can't bring the Canyon to Mark, but you said your palette can match colors his can't, so there you go: paint a strip of one such color on a scrap of canvas, dry it, varnish it, and send it off.
I'd be especially curious about the grays you say are unobtainable with his palette, because while I know there is no paint that can represent, for instance, a bright blue LED light shining right into your eyeball, grays aren't extreme in value or saturation. So I would definitely include that one in your test.
I'll have to try the approach with flesh tones and see what kind of mess I'll make...
Thanks again.
-V
Mark what you stated is true red and yellow do make orange. Your Alizarin Crimson (which is also a primary of mine) and Cad yellow pale (is that correct) will not make the same orange as Winsor Red and Cad Yellow light. That to is a fact. And that is my point.
The models skin tones I mentioned, I have tried many times using north light (as is my usual) and an identical palette to yours, just would not make the colors I was seeing. James Reynolds painted her once and he had to change his palette to get the colors. (this was a paint together in my studio with several other artists. Everyone of us wound up matching the color of her skin, and it took basically the same colors by each of us. Our normal palettes would not match all the colors in her skin. You are really surprising me with this conversation and lack of acceptance that there are other ways of making colors. somehow that misses the point of art in ways. At least I am getting that feeling. I though good art needed flexibility to grow. Maybe I am wrong on that also.
Send me an address.
address sent
But all of this is besides the point, as I said before this is simple color science. Take a gray as you mentioned. If I put a swatch of that on a pallet, and I try to match it with my 5 colors. It is not possible for me not to be able to match it EXACTLY. Why... because of the six questions plus darker and lighter - so eight questions. That's it. At no point will I be stuck, not possible. I simply ask the questions and make the adjustment until I can no longer see any difference. If I do see a difference, I add the appropriate color of the five until I get there.
This is what I object to, the falsehood I am trying to shoot down... There are no special colors. None, zero. All color, the billions and billions all fall within the color wheel and are therefore attainable using just the 7 colors I suggest. Saying that these special colors are not attainable is false and untrue and I think it is important for artists to understand that.
I have not experimented with paint as much as most people here, but I do have an understanding of it to some extent and I have painted a few paintings, and I have never, ever encountered a color that I couldn't get with Mark's palette using the simple process he teaches. I have also seen Mark paint countless paintings and have never once seen him unable to mix a color. I've also never seen him use any colors besides the palette he recommends. But, like I said, I haven't actually tried to prove him wrong as the issue never came up since I never had a color I couldn't mix. So I'm interested to see what the outcome of this test is. Please do include one of those grays in your test if you don't mind.
So yes, there is a healthy "lack of acceptance" here, but also a willingness to be proven wrong, hence the open invitation to test your assertion. I think "refusal to acknowledge demonstrable facts" is a bad thing, but not educated skepticism. For now there are simply two people who disagree based on their experiences — nothing more, nothing less. No problem. Once the test is complete, then we'll have more.
I really, truly don't expect anyone to assume Mark is right or assume you're right. I think it's good to test things. Endless debate is only good for metaphysics and the definition of the word "art".
I am interested in learning as much as I can and trying different approaches.
Thanks again.
-V
You may think you are the worlds greatest authority on color, but there are thousands of far better artists than you or I that would laugh in your face. A few I learned from. That said, I have repeatedly admitted I use the same palette as you recommend, most of the time and by most of the time I would say 85-90%, but if you really painted and like d it which in a Hangout you said you didn't like painting, you would know there are ties every painter runs into situations they have never seen before and a real artist adapts. Refusal to do so in ignorant or close minded. Take your pick. I am about solving problems, not being bull headed to say my way is the only way.
I fully understand how you go about mixing color. I do the same as does every artist I know, so that is no big deal, it's more of a so what. I can do the same, using your palette and come close, but no matter how close, it is still not the same exact color. There is nothing wrong with your palette, I have never said there was, but it has the same limitations as every limited palette every conceived. I have a news flash, Mark, you are not the only artist who knows something about color. You are good, I would even say well above many, but THE authority? Not even close.
I love how you guys claim you are so scientific and painted hundreds of portrait. Great. I am happy for you, but when I tell you I have painted hundreds of Grand Canyons, and hundreds of landscapes,seascapes, interiors, still lifes, I have learned a few things and when it comes to landscapes you haven't a clue. Let me up the ante on this challenge. How about I paint your Landscape and use your palette and see who likes which one. Let's see if the mutual admiration Society has the nerve to speak their mind then. Okay?
I hate it when someone pisses me off over something so stupid.
No need to argue, I can either match your colors with my pallet or I can not.
In regards to comparing my paintings to yours, now you are no longer talking science, there are no right or wrong answers there. Even if I was a horrible artist, my limited pallet can either match your colors or they can not.
I once had an English professor declare that the true key to Heaven was the skillful use of language. At the time, I dismissed his comment as just hyperbole by an academic championing his field of expertise. But I never forgot it, and nowadays, it rings ever so true. The other side of the coin is that poor communication skills and careless words can surely lead to unnecessary trips to Hell.
I am truly disappointed. Swatches? What's this about swatches in the mail.
This was shaping up as an en plein air paint off on the edge of the Canyon at sunset with a nude redhead. Damn.
Denis
I have a video about my palette. In it I say something like "you can mix any color in the world with just these colors..." So when AZ says something to the contrary, I am only posting that I disagree with that. Nothing personal on my end at all, I am just debating the point.
I have been through this before with other artists, it has always been fun. I ask for the swatch not to be smirk, I just know that in the end it is the only way to prove it.
AZ, if one of these unmixable colors exists in tube form, just tell me what it is and I can order it myself online. Once I get it, I will mix it. I can even make a video of me doing it.
I assure you if I can't mix it, I will admit it and post the video in the forum and then take down the one where I talk about my favorite colors.
oh a great dvd would be for Mark to paint plein-air in the canyon with AZ ... each have thier own palette and paint the same subject.... oh I would pay to see that one!!
You may think you are the worlds greatest authority on color, but there are thousands of far better artists than you or I that would laugh in your face. A few I learned from. That said, I have repeatedly admitted I use the same palette as you recommend, most of the time and by most of the time I would say 85-90%, but if you really painted and like d it which in a Hangout you said you didn't like painting, you would know there are ties every painter runs into situations they have never seen before and a real artist adapts. Refusal to do so in ignorant or close minded. Take your pick. I am about solving problems, not b
I have a news flash, Mark, you are not the only artist who knows something about color. You are good, I would even say well above many, but THE authority? Not even close.
I love how you guys claim you are so scientific and painted hundreds of portrait. Great. I am happy for you, but when I tell you I have painted hundreds of Grand Canyons, and hundreds of landscapes,seascapes, interiors, still lifes, I have learned a few things and when it comes to landscapes you haven't a clue. Let me up the ante on this challenge. How about I paint your Landscape and use your palette and see who likes which one. Let's see if the mutual admiration Society has the nerve to speak their mind then. Okay?
I hate it when someone pisses me off over something so stupid.
AZPainter , I have read your comments again. You really are insulting to Mark, and downright Insulting to all the rest of the Forum members, by calling us" The Mutual Admiration Society" . These types of comments spoil the threads for the rest of us. Marie
Will try this out
For me, learning to mix color using the limited palette and the six questions has been an extremely rewarding and productive approach. I'm not intimidated in the least by any color I need to mix. Very liberating feeling.
Even though I am always surprised at the colors I can achieve, I am usually skeptical when I print off one of my reference photos. I look at all the complicated colors and values. It always seems like there are at least one or two colors that I don't think I will get.
But then all I have to do is remind myself that my reference? Came from my printer which also has a limited palette - black, magenta, yellow and cyan. And with just those base cartridges it created a whole array of tones and hues. Granted it mixes differently than we do here, but still the same idea - capturing an array of endless colors and values from the primaries.
I see nothing wrong with other's palettes at all. Each to his own. But this is a really great palette and I'd really encourage those that haven't given it a chance to try it. Sure saves lots of money when it comes to buying paint!
Take care
@Robert This isn't just art related, but in my opinion it is never wise to trust the experts, including Mark. Experts are often wrong, for all kinds of reasons. It's better to get as much information as you can from them, experiment and prove to yourself that the information is accurate (sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't), and then instead of simply knowing what so-and-so had to say about a certain subject, you truly understand the subject. So in this case, I can't really say why people do what they do (I could speculate but I'd probably be wrong), but I can try my best to prove Mark wrong. Even though I think he's right, in order to be sure, I have to try my very very best to find a fault in his argument. And if I fail to do that, then I can say with more certainty that he's right — not because he's an expert, but because I verified his claims myself. Does that make sense?
If you don't want to talk about it that's okay — I'm sorry I called you out specifically and dragged you into it. I'm definitely not bickering, just discussing!
http://physics.info/color/
The limited pallette takes out all the complication.
karinjurick.blogspot.com/