Categories
You can send an email to [email protected] if you have questions about how to use this forum.
Longevity of Geneva paints and Virgil Elliot
cadia
-
please delete if too offensive. I responded to a question where “ what is your favorite paint ti use?” On a FB page run by the artist mentioned and this was his response:
From Virgil Elliott: October 2018-
"Please do not recommend any of Mark Carder's products or videos here. He promotes the use of clove oil, which is not a good thing to use with oil paints. I will find it necessary to delete posts with bad advice in them, in the interest of keeping this group free of bad information. I hope no one will take it as a personal slight if I delete something, but I cannot allow this group to be a platform for misleading or bad information. My purpose is to be helpful, and bad information is not helpful."
I love using Geneva Paints, can anyone address this please?
I love using Geneva Paints, can anyone address this please?
Comments
Re:Virgil, people have their opinions. Wataya gonna do?
Reading his work, he is also critical of some of the mediums used by old masters so I wouldn’t say he is wedded to only “old” methods. He is very involved with various groups/committees that are science based around the composition of artist paints.
Some geneva white I used on a painting finished 3 months ago is still tacky.
Geneva is great and clove oil is definitely useful, but once you can mix colours quickly it isn't really necessary. After you have mixed a string of colours once it is very easy to do it again. I will eventually stop using clove oil completely.. I don't really need it anymore. Geneva paint is made specifically for people who are following the dmp method and need piles of paint to stay wet for several days. It is also mixed with lots ofother mediums as well which apparently creates a weaker paint film too.
I do agree that Virgils advice isn't always perfectly sound.. And at times he seems pretty arrogant and closed minded.
@cjd Mark says Geneva paint is pigment, linseed oil and a dash of clove. He refers to “medium” in the sales lit. Do you know what else is in it?
Don't take offense, he is super kind and generous - he just doesn't tolerate people coming onto his page and recommending things that don't fit in line with his teachings.
Clove oil in oil paint acts in the same way as a solvent. The immediate effect inhibits the polymer formation, within a few weeks there is little or no active clove oil ingredient left.
Art mediums are fully infused with opinion and ‘Chinese whispers’ and reinforced by religious practice.
Denis
Denis
@cadia I feel that if any of you have concerns over clove oil then you have to talk to some experts to convince yourself. Google or Fb won't help here. The amount that of data that I have through internet is mostly negative but manufacturers are selling clove oil. So nobody knows really. Better talk to a few restoration experts personally.
2) Said that which is a bit off topic, I would like to make a consideration, chemistry is not an opinion and we shoudl take in account that we have very little evidence for what is stable or good for things which are older than 600 years, if we talk strictly about oil paints. We have even less infos for what concern modern pigments and modern abilities to excract them. our lead white is not the same of a lead white obtained in an horse bladder, we do not use the same blue, most of them are very toxic for yellows..and we do not feed cows for indian ones.. The pigments granulosity is very much more fine..we do not grind them with a stone by hand..
So talking about only one variable is very difficult, we can make extrapolation of datas and make predictions but remember is almost impossible to know ecactly what can happen.
If we have 15 balls on a pool table and we strike one ball into the others in no more than 20 interactions we have more "data" than the atoms in the universe. So now lets talk about 15 pigments and centuries...
I am a science man, and as @dencal pointed we should trust sciences.. If we say that clove oil after a while is no more what we put into the canvas, and after 1000 years we have no clue to what can happen.. Linseed oil make linoxin after a while and became alcol soluble for example..
I am not saying we should use it or not, i am saying that if we talk about science we need proof not opinion, and even if we have proof we should see if there is another variable..Everyone in the science fields know how easy is to have "an apple" if we really want "an apple".
But only thing that I saw was they are overtly concerned about materials. I'm not sure if they put same effort on content of the painting. Most of the stuff that I see everyday are amazing techniques and no appeal! One can't make a Raphael or a Monet or even a Pollock with most accurately made paints. It needs something else.
I have seen a claim by an employee of Winsor and Newton that clove oil can darken a painting. However I have not read anything else that substantiates that and evidence from paintings here and Kyle Sturgess seems to refute that:
https://www.nitpickyartist.com/clove-oil-to-slow-drying.html
Conservators have warned that Clove oil can cause problems when trying to remove varnish:
"Every so often we will encounter a painting by an artist who is known to have used clove oil or a painting that lists clove oil on the reverse as an ingredient in the paint. Many of these paintings have proven impossible to safely clean, meaning the yellowed, degraded varnishes used to coat the surface cannot be removed without causing irreversible damage to the paint layer. Clove oil is an attractive additive BECAUSE it hinders drying...but adding too much can create a film that remains sticky and does not form a cohesive, healthy paint film, one that will remain sensitive to even the mildest of solvents. Most likely adding a drop or two to a substantial amount of medium is not the end of the world, but artists often add far more than is necessary in order to combat the drying processes."
The vapours of clove oil affects the outside of the paint film (when not mixed into the paint):
"There is no evidence that gaseous vapors, in this case eugenol vapors, have the ability to penetrate viscous solids such as oil paint. Rather, a mono layer of eugenol molecules adhere to the outer surface of the paint piles, effectively creating a barrier to the normal process of oxidation by oxygen molecules. This minute quantity of eugenol is insufficient to have any deleterious effect on the polymeric adhesion properties of the mass of paint in the pile in a closed palette. So, logic and science indicates it is safe to use to extend paint life. This, all of course, referring to a few drops of oil in the closed palette, NOT mixed into the paint."
and
"We recently heard back from one of our scientists (Dr. Chris Petersen, a retired organic chemist who formerly worked at Dupont). Here is his comment:
"There would be minimal penetration of the vapor if the paint is simply exposed overnight; clove oil is a phenolic type antioxidant with a boiling point >250 deg. Surface penetration is actually what you want if you are tyring to prevent the drying effect that is propogated by oxygen promoted free radicals. The stuff does have a strong odor so even a small amount in the air is overwhelming. As an interesting aside, phenolic antioxidants are used to stabilize acrylic monomers like methyl methacrylate so they can be shipped and stored in bottles. When you add an initiator to make a polymer, the inhibitor is consumed and the free radical reaction occurs."
So in summary there would in fact be some penetration, albeit minimal. Dr. Petersen therefore also believes that this would not drastically impact the "health" of the paints in the immediate future. "
https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=242
Mixing clove oil into the paint itself is a different matter and I understand that it probably will damage the paint film to some degree as it stops it forming the fully polymerised paint film when used too much. As to how much that is then that's an unknown at the moment.
However bear in mind that Gambin have warned that their popular Gamvar varnish should not be used with any WMO oil paint as it causes issues when removing the varnish, yet WMO are popular and used by many artists too. Painting using paints made from safflower, poppy or walnut oils is supposed to result in a weaker paint film yet that's also very popular. (especially in whites) Finally the number one thing you can do to increase the lifespan of your work is to paint on a rigid surface rather than stretched cotton or linen, yet it seems to me the minority of paintings are created on rigid surfaces..
It's all a weighing up of advantages and disadvantages..
Hope that helps!
Richard
Also, I can't paint with lead white and have to use titanium white. But so does thousands of people including modern masters.
There are many traditions apart from academic/historic. My point is that I am not trying to make a piece of furniture here but a furniture that may carry a piece of my life in it. Presently, I would have to go for the things that I can afford at this point because most of the traditional things are either expensive/unavailable. But I must continue following generally accepted ideas. BTW I would love to paint with lead white.
Also Virgil's FB page is mostly for his own self promotion.