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Which pencil do you use for penciling on stained canvas? please help

Hi, I would like to  ask you about the pencil you use for drawing on stained canvas? Do you use Stabilo-All Pencil 8044 Yellow, which Mark recommands?
Are there any aletrnatives?

Comments

  • Cheap yellow coloured pencil that I stole from my son, or more usually burnt umber diluted with turps.

    I don't use Geneva stain; I just buy pre-primed canvases then give them a coat of "school grade" white acrylic, with enough burnt umber added to get the shade I want. I've found that Chromacryl brand burnt umber is almost the exact tone as the Geneva stain, once mixed with white.

    My pallet (an A3 photo frame) is painted the same colour (under the glass), which in my view seems to be the most important thing.

    That way, I have more money left for Absinthe.

    #bottomfeeding #starvingartist
    BG62rudbeagDesertsky
  • Datura

    I like Stabilo Carbothello pastel pencils. But I have used fine line pigment pens on difficult surfaces.

    Denis
  • @Observer - thanks for your info.
    @Dencal - Stabilo All, that Mark recommends is a watercolor pencil. So I can use a pastel one, it won't mix with paints?

  • dencaldencal -
    edited March 2018
    Datura

    I have not had any mixing or contamination trouble with pastel pencils.
    Mostof my drawings are on an acrylic block in, acrylic under painting or acrylic toning.

    If this remains a concern a light spray working fixative, or a light hairspray will seal the pastel.

    Denis

  • More great ideas, thanks all!
  • SummerSummer -
    edited March 2018
    I use both what Mark recommends and the pigment pens but I'm always on the lookout for something better.  I experimented with a black permanent magic marker with good test results on paper but still want to try it on canvas under an oil painting.   
  • @movealonghome , what brand/type pencil is that?
  • edited May 2020
    I always painting on my t shirt and custom shoes, I used Tooli-Art 30 acrylic paint pens. Tt has a very small pen tip size of 0.7mm,there are 30 colors and fast drying, safety free of any acid or chemicals. This is great permanent marker on canvas. 
  • edited August 2020
    I don't really like using pencils for canvas. I enjoy Creative Joy Fabric Markers for painting on canvas. I bought these Creative Joy fabric markers because they have dual tips. I can use the broader tip for shading and the fine tip to create crisp lines. Both tips are good and have nice flexibility that makes them easier to work on softer fabrics. I also like it because the ink is vivid and bright
  • I tend to work on gessoed wooden panels. I don't get the detail I want with charcoal, and graphite is meant to cause problems. After trying various, I am happy with polychromo pencil.

    "Faber Castell Polychromos Pencils are a unique tool in the world of sketching. They are oil based as opposed to being wax based like other pencils, allowing them to blend with solvents, like turpentine or white spirit in a similar way to how you would blend oil paints".

    I like them and have had no issues so far. 

    dencalEstee
  • I bought this for sketching. Little did I know that it would not show up or erase. $5 for something that is useless to me. Pencil sticks to this white "pencil" but once you try to erase it doesn't move. Ruined my recent sketch. Waste of money for one useless pencil.
  • I use Artistro acrylic paint marker for canvas, Acrylic ink for a high level of versatility and application on diverse surfaces including fabric, metal, wood, rock and more. The pigments dry fast, allowing me to get on with my project in no time, so no need for waiting around for hours. 
  • MichaelD said:
    I tend to work on gessoed wooden panels. I don't get the detail I want with charcoal, and graphite is meant to cause problems.

    I brought that up here, with the comment that it rises through the paint, that I had often heard.  Someone stated that this does not happen, but that sometimes the line is dark enough to show through.  I have seen lots of big name ish artists draw in with regular pencil, most recently someone a Streamline video, who used one of those fat pencils with the 5 mm leads.  I suppose thin transparent paint in one light condition might show the pencil in a different light condition, I am hoping the risk is exaggerated.
    MichaelD
  • Soft charcoal. Workable fixative spay lightly. Too much drawing and it's a mess.
  • Wow – I never knew so many different materials could be used to sketch in. Now I want to try some of these. MichaelD: why do you write that graphite is meant to cause problems?

    True confessions regarding evil graphite:

    I have always used a mechanical pencil with small width (0.5 mm) graphite lead. In over 50 years (OK I am as old as dirt :)  ), I have personally never experienced any bleed through or strike through an oil painting. I suspect this cannot happen with graphite pencil. Also, the graphite used in pencil lead is manufactured to be different than the graphite used for mechanical lubrication.

    I draw lines, lightly, and sometimes half erase so they are lighter. I never use a pencil to shade in value areas.  I draw well, and so this is the most natural way for me to sketch in. Sometimes if I am in a hurry, I just draw with my paintbrush and thin paint. I think that if you cannot control the pressure of the graphite tip on the canvas surface, you could inadvertently score or bend the surface, which will show through. (Another reason for me to avoid canvas.)

    Graphite: carbon mixed with wax and/or clay. Charcoal: carbon mixed with wax or gum.

    I have observed very thin dark lines showing through a few paintings in the National Gallery of Art, WDC USA. Whistler? I think was one. In looking closely at the lines, I decided they were drawn in with paint because of the slight wavering width of the lines. I suppose any dark line could with time show through, especially if one used lead white paint, which becomes a little transparent over decades or centuries.

    I have been afraid of using magic or permanent markers because I do not trust they will not bleed through. This is based on how pervasively they bleed through regular wall paint, when I’ve gone nuts trying to paint over a kid’s drawing on a wall, made with markers. They were Zombie marks, always coming through the paint! I finally had to put a stain block on first, then paint over that.


  • ps -  I thought but don't know for sure, that all colored pencils of all brands were a combination of wax and oil. If a little more oil than wax, it is marketed as an "oil" based pencil; if a little more wax, then it is a "wax" pencil. This is based on the functional requirements of the pencil, which needs oil to be soft enough to apply easily, and wax to be stable enough to hold together and not crumble easily. 
  • @Desertsky

    Mark uses pastel pencils.  He works from a dark ground and uses lighter pastel. Choose a neutral color.

    As for Whistler. Depending on the artist material oils loose color, opacity or may darken over time. They crack and peel and flake. That keeps the restoration industry very busy. Paints have gotten better in the last 150 years but the sun and light work their destructive atomic magic. Atmospheric conditions cause great harm. Use a UV varnish to slow the process and hide your paintings in a closet. Just kidding. Minimize exposure to UV light, fireplace and urban fumes.
    My wife tells me 'What does it matter. You'll be dead." 
  • edited March 5
    TamDeal said:
    MichaelD said:
    I tend to work on gessoed wooden panels. I don't get the detail I want with charcoal, and graphite is meant to cause problems.

    I brought that up here, with the comment that it rises through the paint, that I had often heard.  Someone stated that this does not happen, but that sometimes the line is dark enough to show through.  I have seen lots of big name ish artists draw in with regular pencil, most recently someone a Streamline video, who used one of those fat pencils with the 5 mm leads.  I suppose thin transparent paint in one light condition might show the pencil in a different light condition, I am hoping the risk is exaggerated.

    Yes I have come across just as many who dont see it as a problem as those that do. I have used it myself on several pieces.

    From what I gather it may not be the Horror story that some make out. I have read that its really only a problem with lighter colours as it can show from underneath in time, as the paint layer fades.
  • edited March 5
    @Desertsky
    “MichaelD: why do you write that graphite is meant to cause problems?“

    See my, rather late, response above to @TamDeal

     :) 
  • I use Stabilo Aquarellable #8044. Yellow

    Dustin_Cropsboy
  • MichaelD - Thanks for the fuller explanation. I guess that if enough time passes, and as you say, the lighter colors fade or become transparent, the line could show through. I have never seen it in my own work, but I am only one person among many painters, and my observations and a little research are not the last word in art best practices.  I want to make painting decisions based on evidence, not conjecture, and that is partly what drew me to Mr. Carder's site and his youtube videos. If you ever find evidence that graphite shows through, please post it for us. Thanks. 
  • edited March 7
    No problem @Desertsky,
    This is a very helpful resource -Department Of Art Conservation University of Delaware ( I think @Richard_P pointed me in the direction of it on another topic a while back). The responses and advice often dont just come from one person so its quite comprehensive in that respect.

    The question put here (see link) is actually about graphite onto oil paint, but it does touch on what we have been discussing here.


    https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=356


    Desertsky
  • MichaelD  Wow! Thank you so much for the link. Great information and greatly appreciated. I will bookmark this.  I am familiar with MITRA, but don't remember that Q&A.  I need to read through all the oil paint Q&As again. 

    Before covid, I belonged to a local arts group. The amount of folklore and superstition was surprising. It seemed to me that the more something was a "little known fact" that the more it was both untrue and that people felt a little superior in trotting it out to newcomers like me. Did you know that turpentine will spontaneously explode and catch your painting on fire if you use it in the house? Did you know that lead oil paint is so dangerous that you should wear a respirator and gloves when applying it with brushes? Etc. So many opportunities to practice tact and diplomacy :) 
    MichaelD
  • edited March 7
    @Desertsky

    No problem, I’m sure you would/will do he same for anyone else. As I say I happened to see that site in a post that Richard was linking for someone in a post on here for an answer.
    I have found it very useful to dip in.

    Oh I know sometimes its hard to pin down what the truth may be with so many conflicting ideas. I guess sometimes, if there are a variety of suggestions, then its a case of picking what suits. Or trial and errror with each one.

    About a year back I saw a YooToob vid, someone’s showed their great idea of cleaning/conditioning your brushes with baby oil.

    I thought great thats real cost effective. But I stopped immediately when an artist friend, who’s opinion I respect, told me that you cant really clean the baby oil out of the brushes, and if it gets in your paint thats a problem.

    Similar thing happened when I saw a recommendation for a certain brush soap cleaner. Yes it got them clean but it actually reduced the life of my brushes, as its very harsh and abrasive.

    So much to learn, such little time

     :) 
  • Interesting site, @MichaelD.

    I've avoided graphite because of the myth that it migrates through the paint. Silly me. I don't do a lot of under-drawing but when I do I've tried all sorts of oil based pencils. But they are soft and break so easily and they don't maintain a fine point for long on canvas. I'm going to try graphite again. I'm glad you posted that link.  :)
    MichaelD
  • @tassieguy

    I’m glad you found it useful Rob.

    Yes I’m more relaxed about using graphite myself now if and when I need an underdrawing.

     :) 
    Desertsky
  • I use the stabilo All that mc recommends because it will mark on anything (including Geneva stain) and you can clean off unwanted marks with a qtip dipped in water. 

    I sometimes want to wipe the paint off completely and repaint an area if I’m unhappy and the paint is getting over worked. If you use the All, and fix it with Blair matte spray fix, you can wipe down to the ground and the marks stay put. 
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