RGB values for Geneva Essential pallette

Andre

What are RGB values for Geneva Essential pallette (Bismuth Yellow, Pyrrole Rubine, Burnt Umber, and French Ultramarine)? I would like to try mixing colors in painting software using this pallette and it is requred to have exact data for these colors to define color swatches. 
I'm assuming that the mixing behavior of the colors shouldn't change much and if it works for real colors it's quite possible that it will work within the limits of how the program is capable of doing it.

tassieguy

All a bit technical for me but this page might be of  some help: https://web.njit.edu/~walsh/rgb.html

Andre

These values are really sensitive to the result so I suppose it should be real exact data and  perhaps only the manufacturer can say it. 

CBG

@Andre

No software program you own will properly mix paint colors to correctly simulate the way paints mix when one mixes colors on a palette.


With real oils:

Reds + Greens mix to produce neutral grey, this is true also for orange + blue, and yellow + purple.


The main issue is that digital color spaces are either purely additive (monitors) or subtractive (printers),  and specifically RGB, or CMYK.

Real pigments and how light is transmitted and reflected does not follow the simplistic color models used to store color information.  Although you can reproduce anything using digital color models, the simplistic use (linear combinations) of the component color space vectors (RGBCMYK) cannot serve to model the behavior of mixing pigment.

Some software can model the production of green when blue and yellow are combined (in digital color spaced normally you get grey from blue and yellow).


So you will never get a good idea of what mixing real oils would be like using software. IMHO

Andre

probably you are right, but even with all the restrictions that the use of the program imposes it may be good starting point for a practice

tassieguy

Awesome! Wish I understood all that @CBG. You Must work in or have studied IT. 

dencal

andre

I agree with CBG on this issue.

These colour swatches were screen shots from the Geneva website.

The RGB values are in the first column.

Ignore the colour name the app applies to the last three colours.

Denis

Richard_P

I'd use Golden's Virtual Paint Mixer. They have the same pigments as Mark's Geneva paints so it's probably the closest you will get:

PW6 (Titanium White), PY184 (Bismuth Yellow), PR264 (Pyrrole Red Dark), PB29 (Ultramarine Blue), and PBr7 (Burnt Umber)

https://www.goldenpaints.com/mixer

tassieguy

That's a great tool, @Richard_P. I had a play with it. 

Andre

dencal,

Thanks for sharing. Never met this software before. Photograph Analyzer? Is it on Mac?

I think those images weren't properly exposured so the resulting values are hardly true. 

Andre

Richard_P - that's an interesting toy but it is unlikely to be useful to anyone.

Richard_P

Andre said:

Richard_P - that's an interesting toy but it is unlikely to be useful to anyone.

Err.. That does exactly what you asked for with regards to paint mixing. As others have said paint mixing can't be simulated with simple RGB combinations as light is a additive process and paint mixing is a subtractive one. Also it's not a toy, it's a useful tool.

dencal

Andre

Can’t see the Photograph Analyser listed in the App Store offerings anymore. However, similar Apps exist, try this one.

Denis

Andre

dencal,

IMAGE COLOR SUMMARIZER - free and web based.

tassieguy

@Dencal, that's only for iPad.

@Andre, I searched IMAGE COLOR SUMMARIZER.  What I found was a command line tool — there is no interface.  There is no support to get the software going which is fair enough because it's free.  But only of use to young tech geeks

CBG

Ode to the Nameless Color

What’s in a name? That which we call Cinereous
By any other name would look as subtle and lovely;
So Bistre would, were it not Bistre call’d,
Retain that dear perfection which it is
Without that label. Oh, colors that shineth, shed thy names,
And for those names which are no part of thee,
Take all joyous vision reflected in our eyes back unto thee!

(Anon2 and Shakespeare)

tassieguy

Love it, CBG. It's almost like something Samuel Beckett might have written. 

Andre

tassieguy said:

@Andre, I searched IMAGE COLOR SUMMARIZER.  What I found was a command line tool — there is no interface.  There is no support to get the software going which is fair enough because it's free.  But only of use to young tech geeks

 You can use it right in your browser. Here it is:
 http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/color-summarizer/?analyze

dencal

rob

@Dencal, that's only for iPad

iPhone and iPad.

Denis

tassieguy

Ah, I see, now. Thanks, @Andre. 

tassieguy

@Dencal, I don't have an iphone or an iPad, so it's useless to me and most of the world's population. 

dencal

rob

OK. So check out your App Store for Microsoft or Android. There must be equivalent colour analysers for those operating systems.

so it's useless to me and most of the world's population.

In 2017, there were 728 million iPhones in the world.

Between the time it started production and 2018, the company sold 2.2 billion iPhones.

Apple has sold more than 425 million iPads since the original debuted in 2010.

Hmmm….

Denis

tassieguy

Thanks, @dencal. But the majority of us still don't use them.  It's not that one system is better than others. It's just that not everyone uses the same system. I don't get why people write apps for only one system. They cut themselves off from the majority of the market. 

Andre

tassieguy said:

I don't get why people write apps for only one system. 

The majour reason that technicaly it is not so easy. Apps for diffrenrent platforms uses diferent programming languages. And roughly speaking it means that making an app for both platform will take twise more time and effort.

tassieguy

Ok, I see. But wouldn't twice the effort involved in writing for both platforms result in twice the sales? 

ASCooperband

I looked up the RGB values for Mark's colors some time ago:

                                                     R        G        B

                     Burnt Umber        88        4      41

 French Ultramarine Blue        14        5    118

                  Pyrrole Rubine      165        3        3

               Cadmium Yellow      255    246        0

                  Titanium White      251    251    251

Andre

ASCooperband said:

I looked up the RGB values for Mark's colors some time ago

it looks similar, but the burnt umber is wrong

kaustavM

My God! I just paint with oil paints! So old fashioned!

Andre

http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Oil/Oil-Paint.html made a representation of the most knowable color brands to rgb values

some differs quite noticable, for instance, amsterdam oils burnt umber vs winton's burnt umber

CBG

The "value" of these colors appear differently on different monitors.  A calibrated monitor will "accurately" reproduce the color according to choices including how the gamut is used... absolute, perceptual,  etc.  Also, calibration of monitors can vary, choice of white balance is up to artistic preference as is gamma (to some degree).  Some monitors have different contrast ratios, and native brightness...

So a burnt umber will look somewhat different although not erroneously so, on different calibrated monitors.  

But that is ok because, even pure burnt umber looks different, depending upon lighting.  Indoor lighting can be cool or warm depending upon the combination of light bulbs and any light streaming in through a window.  Cloudy days, versus sun streaming in, versus only blue sky visible through a window, will change the tone of light throughout a room, even with artificial lighting...  and of course the value of "burnt umber" is entirely relative... in blinding light it can be blinding.


I think the numbers can be used if they are mostly relied upon only for relative color and relative value (not some kind of absolute), i,e, when all were "measured" by the same lab or source using the same techniques, and all are to be presented, used, or viewed in a single monitor or studio setting.

Andre

CBG said:

The "value" of these colors appear differently on different monitors.

That's true, but even on calibrated monitors (which is something incomprehensible to most artists, does every artist have a monitor that can in principle be calibrated? or does every artist have a monitor calibration device?) the display colors, for exampe amsterdam's vs winton's burnt sienna will be different, because they are realy different - according to the art-paints.com.

CBG

Yes, and with an understanding of the relative differences they can be thought of as two different colors and used accordingly.  You could call these “sunlight sienna” and “charred sienna” to differentiate them😁