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DMP Forum vs other online platforms

edited June 1 in General Discussion
I'm curious to know whether and how members here use online platforms other than DMP. So here's a little survey that I hope you'll participate in.

Has social media like Facebook and platforms such as YouTube and Instagram affected your use of the DMP Forum? Do you go onto those more now to post work whereas once you would have just come to DMP? Do you have a preference, or do you like to use both DMP and the other platforms? Are the other platforms as good as the DMP forum when it comes to feedback from other painters or are they mainly used as marketing tools? 

Just curious. I have no opinion on the relative merits of either. Thanks for participating.  :)

Comments

  • @Tassieguy - I currently do not use much social media. I have read really good things about the Facebook forum "Painting Best Practices" which I may join.

    I look at how-to painting videos on youtube sometimes (probably once a month or less). This forum and the DMP videos are much, much better than anything else out there. The only other oil paint forum I look at is WetCanvas, and once I found this forum, I have almost quit visiting that one. It is frequented by beginning painters who want to be quickly guided in craftsmanship by others' opinions while, paradoxically, worrying about urban myths such as oil paintings spontaneously bursting into flames because of linseed oil being the medium. Many will not do even the modest amount of work of reading a single book on oil painting or composition or anatomy. 

    I think that the reason this forum is so good is that Mr. Carder has given a firm foundation to all aspects of the painting process. This shapes the forum-members' thoughts and gives a common orientation and vocabulary to the discussions. 

    This eliminates a lot of the urban myth nonsense. Also, those who have followed the DMP method seem to be serious about improving their painting and who put in a lot of hours to improve. This is a self-selecting group whose members are disciplined (because of the hours needed to learn and improve), thoughtful, and helpful (because of sense of gratitude for DMP). In other words: smart, hard-working, nice and GOOD LOOKING!   :) 


     
    tassieguy
  • edited June 1
    That's interesting, @Desertsky. And it pretty much sums up why I find DMP such a congenial place and such a useful resource. I'm the best looking member here. Not. :) 
  • I find that there are several good groups on FB that have knowledgable, highly experienced, and talented members who are always glad to share their knowledge.

    Among them are Painting Best Practices, Rational Painting, and Traditional Oil Painting. Also, there are many outstanding artists who are extremely profitable to follow. Just off the top of my head, Richard Murdock, Paul Foxton, Todd M Casey, Kathleen Speranza, and many others. In addition, unless you work exclusively with Geneva oil paints, some of the better paint manufacturers such as M. Graham and Michael Harding often go live on FB with extremely informative presentations about various aspects of oil paints -- how they're made, how to make your own, etc., etc.

    Then there are several groups devoted to the Munsell method and how to create strings of color which is quite similar to Mark's steps in many respects and worth investigating.

    Note that none of these are groups where artists merely post their paintings. Though it's quite informative to follow some of these groups, too, to see what others are doing and learn about many excellent artists and their work. 
  • edited June 1
    Thank you for responding, @ArtistMartin1. I think I've found a comfortable little cocoon here at DMP but need to get out more. I have an aversion to Facebook and all the silly "likes", gossip and social competition that goes on there. I closed my account there about five years ago. Perhaps I should have another look.  :)
    ArtistMartin1
  • @ArtistMartin1 glad to see you are still part of this forum, loved your beautiful little paintings :)
    tassieguy
  • @tassieguy, you're certainly right with what you say concerning FB. It's a morass. Unfortunately, even if one just follows, for example, the groups and artists one respects and likes, your feed will be filled with irrelevant "sponsored" and "suggested" posts and there is no way to avoid them. The best one can do is simply scroll past them. Also, if you do decide to have another look, when you sign up, don't fill out any biographical information at all. That way, when the advertisers specify an audience, you'll not fit into any of their categories. But it is a morass, no question.

  • @ArtGal, thanks for your kind comment
  • I’m adverse to FB and other platforms.  I prefer to not become the product they sell.  But that’s just the way I am.   But then I’m not very good at self promotion.  
    I like this forum.  It’s helpful and friendly and supportive.
    KingstonFineArtArtGalCBG
  • I deleted my fb account years ago. And it’s only gotten worse since then. I’ve heard all the stuff about instagram and maybe one day I’ll try it, but honestly I’m trying to stay away from social media. I think life would be much simpler without it, but I’m not naive enough to think it’s going away. And I’m not really good at self promotion either. I do watch YT videos but I’m not on any other artist forum besides DMP. 
    CBGtassieguy
  • edited June 2
    Thanks for responding, @GTO and @HondoRW. It's good to know that I am not the only one in the world who doesn't use Facebook.  :)
  • edited June 2
    tassieguy said:
    I'm curious to know whether and how members here use online platforms other than DMP. So here's a little survey that I hope you'll participate in.

    Has social media like Facebook and platforms such as YouTube and Instagram affected your use of the DMP Forum? No. work and life mostly. 
    Do you go onto those more now to post work whereas once you would have just come to DMP? No
    Do you have a preference, or do you like to use both DMP and the other platforms? All
    Are the other platforms as good as the DMP forum when it comes to feedback from other painters or are they mainly used as marketing tools? No-others are mostly for marketing except a few FB ones. But Feedback/comments has become lesser nowadays in DMP. 
    Just curious. I have no opinion on the relative merits of either. Thanks for participating.  :)
    @tassieguy I wrote my answers above in bold
  • edited June 2
    Thanks, @kaustavM.

     It's interesting that most of the respondents thus far do not rely heavily on these other platforms.
  • Nope from me. I have a fb account but rarely look at it - though I do use fb messenger to keep in contact with friends. I don’t use or subscribe to any other social media - I have no need, or interest to be honest. I paint for my own pleasure, but if I decided I wanted to try and sell anything or try and get commercial in any way, then I’d probably reconsider. 
  • edited June 2
    I’m on FB but not for my artwork, though I do post work on there its more for friends to see.
    Getting a little tired of the Funeral Plans adverts they keep pushing on me there, bloody cheery stuff.  :)

    I am on Instagram, linked to some friends and a fair few other artists. Its nice to connect with what basically amounts to seeing others work and they can see yours. In terms of marketing and selling though I dont know if its much use because it seems its just seen by other artists in the same boat.

    I have on the odd occasion looked at WetCanvas for maybe a specific topic.

    I have my own website, which does not get much viewing traffic. You probably have to pay to get it more out there.

    http://www.michaeldoran.org/

    And of course I still enjoy popping onto this forum now and then.

     :) 
  • Thanks for responding, @Roxy and @MichaelD. It seems members here are relying less on these other platforms than I thought. 
  • For me, DMP is the only place i will come to when i need advice or critique as this is a more personal, one-to-one way of communication.
    FB : i post here from time to time for my friends and relatives (elders/cousins who aren't on Instagram) would like to see my work. I haven't joined any groups here to post paintings. So my time and involvement is minimal here.
    Insta: I post here when i have some art to show, like in DMP. Again, doesnt need much involvement as in DMP. But i come back to Insta atleast once a day, not for my art but as I really like seeing the works of artists I admire a lot and when you're following >200 artist some new art is always up everyday.

  • Thanks for responding, @anwesha. So, for you, not much FB and some Instagram but DMP is the place you go for serious, more personal communication re your work. Interesting. Similar to some others.

    When I get enough responses to make the statistics meaningful, I'll compile a small chart that will show the results of this little survey in an easy to digest form. I'll just use the stats and not the members' names.   :)
    Desertsky
  • correct :D 
    tassieguy said:
    Thanks for responding, @anwesha. So, for you, not much FB and some Instagram but DMP is the place you go for serious, more personal communication re your work. Interesting. Similar to some others.

  • CBGCBG -
    edited June 2
    I think online platforms can be looked at on a spectrum, based on whether they mostly "push" content to or "accept" content from users.

    Platforms that tend to push content, are platform initiated, tend to be more about social status or consensus (likes and retweets and upvotes), and are more aggressively focused on advertising, whereas platforms that tend not to push but mostly accept user initiated content, like the DMP forum, tend to be more intimate exchanges of wanted information, with little to no aggressive advertising.

    I find that the latter platforms are more rewarding albeit they involve a bit more work.  They also tend to be much more sane.
    HondoRW
  • I have a facebook page, but that's just to post photos of my paintings for my non artist friends to see.

    I also follow quite a few artists on Twitter, but that's really for inspiration and just to see what great art they are making rather than getting feedback or information.
  • Fb, insta and unfortunately even youtube has gone really bad, all are aggressively tracking every single move to target specifically more personalised ads. Internet used to be a fun place before social media and Google (took over the Internet). Forums like this are a joy for me, especially DMP because the exchange of information is really valuable and plus its a joy looking at members artwork. 
    I had a fb account, the only reason I kept it was to keep in contact with friends. I got sick of it and finally made the decision to delete my account.
    Does anybody feel that all this social media and intrusive ads on the internet have an effect on their mental health?

    HondoRW
  • @Marinos_88. I agree with you completely. With all the tracking and profiling the algorithms put you into a narrow view, dare I say echo chamber.  I still look at YouTube and at specific artists web sites.  Not Facebook or Instagram or Twitter.  Pretty much DMP. 
    Marinos_88
  • edited June 3
    Thanks for responding, @CBG, @Richard_P and @Marinos_88.

    I think that social media can drive you nuts. It's probably affecting the whole world's mental health. I think your term, "echo chamber" is apt, @GTO:)
    HondoRWMarinos_88
  • @tassieguy said:
    I think that social media can drive you nuts. It's probably affecting the whole world's mental health
    There is absolutely no doubt that statement is true. 

    tassieguy
  • edited June 3
    Although I only joined here a few days ago, I will subject you all to my thoughts on the subject.

    I am not a fb user.  I never saw the need.   I have never seen an instagram page, nor a twitter one.  I used to be a member of some other (non art related) forums many years ago and kept up to date with them on a daily basis for a long time.    However, in the last 4 or 5 years, my enthusiasm with them waned.  One forum just died naturally as everyone bowed out over a period of time.   Life moves on.   

    Since I have begun painting again in the last few of months, I have had encouragement from family to join fb as a means of getting my work known to gain some commissions and sell some work.   I have so far resisted, and am interested to hear that it is not quite the magic forum for sales as I had been led to believe.
    I am useless at promoting myself.   I have given away most of my art over my lifetime and undercharged for the 7 or 8 works I have sold in my lifetime (over 50 years).  I am currently in a pretty poor financial position and do need an alternative income source, hence trying find a way to get my work known.
    Does anyone sell through galleries?   Perhaps coffee shops or such like?  Years ago I hung paintings in a health food store.  I sold one work in 3 years.   Same with a saddlery/tack shop, one sale in 4 years.  Am I just not good enough?   I have no idea, since people I know tell me my work is good, yet it does not sell.
    Is etsy any use?  I have heard it is full of sellers, but not buyers.

    When I found DMP a few days ago, I had hoped to get some feedback on my art, and to see if others felt I was on the right path.   So far, some of you have viewed the pictures I have put up, but no one has critiqued or commented, which is a pity.   Perhaps it is early days?  I am not sure how often people respond to new posts in here, or maybe there is no response until one has been a member for a time?

    I am on you tube most of my time.   My injury 12 years ago left me having to lie down frequently throughout the day.   I have my tv set up to the computer and am on you tube constantly, listening to podcasts, watching all sorts of things.    I completely confuse the algorithms with the varied and eclectic interests and subjects I peruse.  I do not watch tv at all now and have not for a few years.

    Sorry for the long post, there was no initial plan to write a novel, it just ended up that way.    For anyone who got this far, thanks for reading and you deserve a chocolate fish!
  • edited June 3
    Hi, @toujours. Thanks for responding to my little survey. So far, it seems that members who do not use FB, or use it only occasionally (and not necessarily for art purposes), are in the majority.

    Selling work is hard. I wouldn't have a clue about how to go about it myself. I'm just lucky I got taken on by a commercial gallery after I won a local community art competition that was judged by the gallery director. I have a show at the gallery once a year now and what's not sold during the show goes in the back viewing space at the gallery and gets sold sporadically throughout the year.  Sometimes the gallery even sells pieces via its website. I don't know how. There's no way I would buy a painting I had not seen in the flesh. So, I always advise people to enter competitions. You might just win and get noticed by a gallery.

    In respect of getting feedback on your work here on the DMP forum, the time it takes people to look and respond varies from instantly to several days. And not all members give feedback to others. Some just use the place to showcase their own work. They get lots of feedback but don't give to others. That pisses me off. I haven't had time to look at your painting yet but will do so tonight and give some feedback. I usually just write a few sentences pointing out what I think is good and some suggestions for improvements. 

    Good to have you aboard. Thanks again for your response.  :)


  • Thanks, tassieguy - for your response.
    Your suggestion of entering competitions is a good one and not something I have ever done before. I suppose that paradoxically, they are mainly advertised on fb in this day and age!  I shall look out for them via other sources.
    I did see a farm sculptural competition in the north island this year and thought I might enter something for next year and send it up.
    thanks for taking the time to look at my pics.  I will go over there and see your ideas.
    tassieguy
  • Oh, I have found on you tube, a way to help confuse them keep them in line is to wipe your you tube history and browsing history regularly.
    tassieguy
  • @tassieguy
    Instagram is the largest 'simple' way exhibit work. It is getting too big growing exponentially every few months. You pick and choose who you follow. Very simple.

    I have several FB groups if get historic information from. I don't use FB regularly. I gave up on it and Instagram when their ad models changed last year. I think instead of me paying to promote on FB they should be paying me for residuals on my information they sell.

    There are several text only forums I go to to find answers to obscure questions.

    YouTube is becoming too big to wade through. Even in chest waders(a little fishing joke). Too much really bad information to sort through.

    I have a FASO page that offers a large community of artists. Marketing, newsletters, direct sales at a 'sort of' reasonable price. They rely on FB for their forum support.

    I have my own site that I have neglected over the past year. My New Year's resolution was to build it up. You know how that goes

    This forum is good in it categorization ability. Built on Vanilla Forum platform. The lack of Mark Carder's influence has allowed it to drift off point.


  • edited June 3
    Thank you, @KingstonFineArt. Mark may not participate in the forum but I think that a few active, longstanding, and dedicated members here do a pretty good job of keeping it on point - that is, on the DMP method. I think it's safe to say that we intend to keep it that way. Over the years we've had a few "stars" barge in here who thought the place was all about them and their brilliant work and their pet theories rather than Mark Carder's. Fortunately, they don't seem to last long here. They sulk off in a huff when they get no traction or if they get pushback from other members. Or they get themselves banned for obnoxious behaviour. Long may it be so. :)

    (Edited for grammar and syntax)
    CBG
  • CBGCBG -
    edited June 3
    tassieguy said:
    Thank you, @KingstonFineArt. Mark may not participate in the forum but I think the relatively few active, longstanding, dedicated members here do a very good job of keeping it on point. Which is the DMP method. I think it's safe to say that we intend to keep it that way. Over the years we've had a few "stars" barge in here who thought the place was all about them and their brilliant work and their pet theories rather than Mark Carder's. Fortunately, they don't seem to last long here. They sulk off in a huff when they get no traction or if they get pushback from other members or they get themselves banned for obnoxious behaviour. Long may it be so. :)

    I think the mere fact that this forum is linked to Mark, his channel, website, and the DMP method, means that fans of his YouTube channel or website or even students of his will keep coming here and using the site, and hence it will always have a strong DMP undercurrent. 

    Of course people who follow DMP are still artists in general with all the same challenges, questions, about art, paint, lighting, composition etc. which is whey there is such a wide variety of topic/sub forums and this IS a great place to discuss it all.
    tassieguy
  • @Tassieguy – thanks for starting this discussion. Very interesting!

    I am surprised at how many respondents have written that they do not use social media much or at all. I wonder if this is because many of us are more introverted than extroverted, or that we are older (except for me of course :) ), or that we are focused on an individual pursuit – our painting – so we have less need of fulfillment from social media. 

    Of course, the DMP members who have not responded may be too busy on FB to respond. I wish there were some way to get members who are active on SM to respond so we could get their perspective.  

  • Thanks for responding, @Desertsky. I agree that those members who are already heavily into FB and Instagram and rarely come here anymore are unlikely to respond to this survey so the conclusions we can draw will be limited. 

    FB is an appalling morass and I closed my account there five years ago. I'm too busy painting to waste time there.  I've signed up on Instagram and occasionally look at paintings posted by those who are/were active members here but I never post my own work there because I don't think my gallery would be happy about it and because there seems to be very little serious discussion about painting. It seem to be all about how many "likes" you get. Sort of like FB. These platforms may offer something I'm not aware of but I can't find anything that would get me posting my work there. Maybe it's the possibility of marketing their work that attracts people there, which is fair enough, especially if one doesn't have other outlets to sell work. But I wonder how much people are actually able to sell through a platform like Instagram. And I wonder what sort of prices they are able to achieve for paintings that buyers can't actually see "in the flesh" on a wall and without representation by a gallery. It's all a bit of a mystery to me but there must be something there that's attracting people who used to post here to those platforms. Maybe I'm just too old and stuck in my ways to understand it.  :)
    GTO
  • I think if you are not trying to sell your work then it's much easier with social media :)
    DesertskytassieguyForgiveness
  • edited June 5
    I just tried out fb since Nov. 2020, by now I have had enough of the morass, too much for me to handle. I had fun celebrating and supporting others during the Christmas & New Year's period, that's finished now. I'm still a member of a couple of groups, 2 not related to art or painting, and still a member with Painting Best Practices where recently I frequent much less, they do have an extensive archive on painting best practices that anyone can look up, read and refer to anytime. I do post on my page, stuff related to good health, and my best paintings for others to view & enjoy & provide a chance at a sale. And I don't frequent yt so much any longer but maybe some of my favorite artists' vids, on occasion.

     I agree with what has been said by the others' experience of fb & yt on this thread.

     Right now I have to "watermark" my photos of my paintings, before posting them. 
     
     At this point in time I would rather just be painting mostly.
    I had the chance to rediscover & try out my new identity as a new oil painter and artist thanks to this DMP Forum. It's worth it for me to keep painting. I'm worthy of the success, rewards & gifts.
  • Thanks for responding, @Forgiveness.  A lot of us here a grateful to DMP.  :)
    Forgiveness
  • I just tried out fb since Nov. 2020,....

     Right now I have to "watermark" my photos of my paintings, before posting them. 
     
     At this point in time I would rather just be painting mostly.
    I had the chance to rediscover & try out my new identity as a new oil painter and artist thanks to this DMP Forum. It's worth it for me to keep painting. I'm worthy of the success, rewards & gifts.
    Hi, could you please explain the "watermark" process?    I have been thinking this an idea for a while, but read it is easy for those in the know to remove and wondered how useful it is?
    Thanks
    Forgiveness
  • edited June 6
    Like Mark Carder, I am often not impressed by my own work. I was attracted to DMP because 1) Mark is self taught, 2) He is philosophical rather than traditionally purely technical in his thinking, and 3) Is non judgmental as to what art is. We all have ego's which run away from us, so, to have a forum upon which its utility is associated with a learning method, I find supportive both artistically and in keeping one humble. A finished piece of art is a journey of joy and frustration, like a game of golf. To be present in the process for me is more rewarding than the aftermath of praise or judgment. Always nice to be paid for your work however when one has mastered their own style.
    tassieguyMarinos_88
  • Thanks for responding, @geoffrey_38. Do you find social media of any use in art related matters such as feedback on your work or sales?
  • tassieguy said:
    Thanks for responding, @geoffrey_38. Do you find social media of any use in art related matters such as feedback on your work or sales?
    No. But I am not a professional artist. I am a hobbyist that takes humble praise when one either judges or buys my work. 
    tassieguy
  • @toujours I don't know for certain but it may be better to watermark anyway. I'm new at this myself and I just subscribed to free software that is available, "uMark 6", listed as the best available. I haven't had time to try it out yet, but I'm going to very soon. 
  • edited June 6
    Thanks, @geoffery_38. I'm collecting statistics for this little survey and every response to the questions is important. I need as many as possible. When I have enough stats to make it meaningful I will put together a chart that will show (amongst other things) how many members are exclusively DMPers, how many are bi-forum and how many have switched from DMP to those other platforms. Obviously, the latter group won't respond to the survey but I know roughly how many there are. I'll just be using the stats and not usernames.  :)
  • PaulBPaulB mod
    tassieguy said:
    Has social media like Facebook and platforms such as YouTube and Instagram affected your use of the DMP Forum?
    Only in terms of growth. We learn to paint, then we learn to sell those paintings, and so the progression is from closed/small communities to larger ones that represent markets. DMP is the former, not the latter.

    Do you go onto those more now to post work whereas once you would have just come to DMP?
    Yes.

    Do you have a preference, or do you like to use both DMP and the other platforms?
    I prefer to try to engage on other platforms because of sales potential. Larger audience, etc. Posting on DMP seems to be only for the curiosity of others, or the ego. Sometimes for critique, which I prefer to get in real time from painting groups over Zoom. It's not ideal, but it's a visual medium for visual work.

    Are the other platforms as good as the DMP forum when it comes to feedback from other painters or are they mainly used as marketing tools? 
    Painting groups give critique more immediately on demand. It becomes a conversation. This is good when you're standing there with a brush, ready to consider and adopt the advice. Slow, considered feedback is also good, so not all immediate reactions are valuable.

    Discord servers can also provide exactly this DMP experience. I use those too.

    Hope this helps.
  • @PaulB- what is a discord server? And what are some of the forums/platforms you use?
  • edited June 7
    Thanks, @PaulB for responding and thanks for your insights on closed, small communities vs larger, open, market oriented ones.  I had to Wiki "discord servers".  They sound interesting. Can you recommend any groups where we can do this "zoom" thing and get critique in real time?  :)
  • I am on Facebook occasionally.  I'm not on any painting forums but this one.  Tried a couple others but they weren't anything that worked for me.  I'm not on Instagram or Twitter or any other social media site.   I do have a web page that needs updating very badly.  I haven't posted anything lately because all I have done is acrylic paintings and fantasy at that.  Totally imaginary.  However, I couldn't have created them without everything I learned from Mark.
  • Thanks for participating, @oilpainter1950.  You've provided more stats for the little chart I'm doing. :)
  • I've had a search for online painting groups and looked at discord servers but I really can't find any groups where you can use Zoom and get feedback in real time. I'd really like to explore this area so if anyone knows about such groups I'd be grateful if you could tell us about them and give us some links.
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