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A good way to mix flesh tones...

Hello all, I'm new here and after a search and quick look I'm not finding a thread which might help me.
I imagine this a pretty redundant question in a painting forum, and if a thread exists, just tell me to shut up and point me to it.

I'm looking for advice on mixing flesh tones. Mine always, without fail end up coming out too tan and I can't avoid it. I've tried different combinations and have tried neutralizing the tones with either sap green or ultramarine blue. I normally start with raw umber and take it up with naples yellow or yellow ochre and white, using venetian red for rosier tones, then neutralize it with either sap green or ultramarine blue.

What do you folks use? Any advice appreciated.
Thanks.
-Vincent
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Comments

  • edited May 2013
    Vincent, welcome to the forum. One thing Mark always says is that skin tones are just like any other colors. If you are working from a photo, laminate it, dab the paint you mix up right onto the photo, wipe it off, mix a bit and repeat until the color matches exactly. Then place that mixed color in the same spot on your painting that you just matched on your photo. Almost all of Mark's videos are free but there is one where he paints a portrait while explaining his processes. That video is a few hours of fantastic. It costs a paltry $20 and has taken many painters up a notch in the quality of their paintings. I recommend it just like all of his other videos.
    Mark_Carder
  • Thank you so much opnwyder. I do intend to buy a copy soon. I watched some of the highlights and was pretty much sold.
  • VTA. Opnwyder is exactly right, but there are so many combinations to make flesh tones and many you would not even imagine. I have painted a lot of figures and still do and I use whatever it takes. You are working with some very grayed down colors with what you listed and there is nothing wrong with that, but it limits where you can take it. For instance, using Venetian Red for a rosier color on a nose or cheek try a touch of Alizarin or in a more sunlight area, working towards a highlight try Winsor Red. This makes incredible clean pinks and a touch of Thalo Yellow green will soften it without going muddy looking as Umbers will. Sap green is not a good color for anything really unless you use a permanent sap green and even then it's tinting strength is not strong enough.

    I used to make a full range of flesh colors for Caucasian, African American/ African or Hispanic skin tones using Rembrandt Brown Madder Alizarin, Thalo Yellow green and white. I used Ultramarine Blue as a modifier for Sometimes a little Cad Lemon on some oriental and Nordic skin tones, but both the blue and yellow were used very sparingly. It was so versatile, and could be manipulated in color, value and temperature. I think evey figure painter I knew used this combination more often than not. But for some reason Talens, makers of Rembrandt oils stopped making it. I'm surprise the country did not hear the collective scream from artists who painted figures. It wasn't our only mix, but it was a great one. I could do two different paintings and just moving towards the Brown Madder Alizarin or towards the yellow green or the two modifiers and white, I could paint totally different skin tones.

    A good commonly and fairly versatile mix is Cad Red Light, Yellow Ochre and either Ultramarine or a mixed green of Cad. Yellow added to the blue and then used sparingly in the red yellow white mixture. Personally, I would prefer a clean Permanent Green light instead or Thalo Yellow green You could also use Alizarin Crimson instead, for your red, or W/N Permanent Rose or Winsor Red. Anders Zorn Made beautiful skin tones with Cad. Red, Yellow Ochre and black and white! I could go on all night, but my best recommendation is to find a combination that works on one painting you are doing at a time and stick with it. The next one will likely need another different combination. What Mark recommends is your best starting point. Keep it simple and you will be much happier just starting out.
    Castillo
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    AZ is making it way too complicated. Just ask the six questions and use a simple pallet as opnwyder says or as I explain in the how to mix colors video.

    Flesh tones are no different whatsoever than any other colors.
  • Mark, if you read my comment I mentioned this and recommended your system as the best way to go for someone starting out as I assume VTA is. Thing is there are hundreds if not thousands of mixtures for flesh, depending on complexion of the subject, race of the subject, lighting present which can make huge changes in color. There is no such thing as "one size fits all" for some subjects and lighting conditions. If you want simple, which is almost always the best solution, try Zorns flesh mixtures. You have an excellent system and I have supported it in almost every comment I have made and I am not disagreeing with it now,but I think people should know there are more than one way to skin a cat. Some simple and some complicated. I vote for simple, but being aware of other possibilities that may solve a problem easier and more accurately. That is all I am talking about. This was never meant to undermine wht you teach, in fact it is support of what you teach.
    RobertLizONeal
  • edited May 2013
    "Skin" a cat......good one John :)) (in a skin tone thread)
    RobertmariebLizONeal
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    I just disagree with you AZ, that's all. Yes, there are many ways to skin a cat, but some are easier than others. I simply think using all those extra colors takes longer, is more confusing and ultimately can lead to confusion about color.

    Still can not think of a single reason to use any color outside the primaries plus white and brown.
    I can mix anyone of those colors you mention with the five I use.
    valentinjcdr
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    Who wants to debate this with me in a Hangout, it would fun! Big pallet vs limited.
    Amrit
  • VTAVTA -
    edited May 2013
    Thanks for the advice fella's. :)

    Am I getting it correct, in reading your post Mark, that I can use Cad Yellow, Cad Red, UltraM Blue and White, with an Umber for the deeps?

    I'm generally thinking neutral skin tones and if a light mood is needed, a value scale of that light mood next to it on the pallette. I'm always hesitant with blue, because I'm worried about getting some death like pallor, and over compensate with the reds.

    And I'm not sure about the six questions reference, is that in the video?
    Thanks for your replies.
    -V
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    AZPainter said:

    Mark, if you read my comment I mentioned this and recommended your system as the best way to go for someone starting out as I assume VTA is.

    I still use only my limited pallet and have never found I needed anything else - after several hundred portraits. Much of what I teach is for beginners to use and then perhaps move on (the intensive use of a color checker for instance). But I think keeping your pallet limited is always best and have never heard a single good reason to use anything else.

    I am not talking about extreme colors here, like traffic cone hot fluorescent red. If you are doing work with extreme colors like that then you will need those extreme colors.

    But any other color I can mix PERFECTLY with my five (plus phthalo blue and cad red when rarely needed).
    victor
  • edited May 2013
    VTA, Marks 6 questions are asked when mixing a color. When you compare your mixed color to the color on the photo (or the color on your color checker to the color of your object) you ask the six questions:

    Is it too red
    Is it too blue
    Is it too yellow
    Is it too purple
    Is it too green
    Is it too orange

    Then you mix in the color on the opposite side of the color wheel from the color you answer "yes" to. This was in the "painting in oil" video I believe....or maybe the "using s color checker". Cant remember. Watch them all!
    [Deleted User]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] admin
    edited May 2013
    VTA said:

    Thanks for the advice fella's. :)

    Am I getting it correct, in reading your post Mark, that I can use Cad Yellow, Cad Red, UltraM Blue and White, with an Umber for the deeps?

    I'm generally thinking neutral skin tones and if a light mood is needed, a value scale of that light mood next to it on the pallette. I'm always hesitant with blue, because I'm worried about getting some death like pallor, and over compensate with the reds.

    And I'm not sure about the six questions reference, is that in the video?
    Thanks for your replies.
    -V

    Yes, watch all the videos on color mixing. You're making it way more complicated for yourself. You don't need to think in terms of "I'll use umber when I need a deep shadow color" or "I'll use ultramarine to give it that moonlit look" or whatever it is. Brown makes things browner, blue makes things bluer, and so on, that's it. The brown is dark so if you add it to a color that's lighter than brown, the color will get darker as well as browner. Yellow is bright, so if you add it to a color that is darker than yellow, the color will get brighter as well as brighter. And so on.

    More blue means the same thing as less orange, more red means the same thing as less green, and so on (opposites on the color wheel). Why is blue the opposite of orange, for instance? Because there are three primary colors: blue, yellow, and red. Orange is made of yellow and red, so naturally the opposite of something that is everything except blue, is of course blue.

    In short there is a very, very basic "science" behind colors you need to know for painting. All you need is to learn that (which Mark explains in his free videos) and then get advice from him and others about techniques in applying that science, which Mark explains very simply in the color mixing videos.

    Don't associate certain objects and surfaces (such as flesh) with specific colors or pigments. Keep it simple — simple is better. Flesh colors can be all over the color wheel. Look at Madame X. And forget pigments. Just think "blue, yellow, red, white, brown". You'll need good pigments for each of those colors. Mark has recommendations on his supply list page: drawmixpaint.com/supplylist
    mariebgfishjudith
  • I have never once promoted a large extensive palette on this site or in any class or workshop I have taught. I do not recommend bright "flourescent" colors, as everyday palette colors. I agree with you a lot of color use can lead to color confusion, but I strongly disagree that the palette you use here, as good as it is, is the answer to every color situation. Meet me at the Grand Canyon on a later afternoon just before the sun sets and you will see the limits, even if painted with a low chroma palette. The colors are just not there to mix them. I believe, use and support your palette and teachings. I know it is for teaching beginners first and yet more advanced artists can learn from it also. You get no argument from me there, but to say it is the only palette anyone will ever need, is just not the case. understanding color is one of my stronger points. Partly because o mixing and matching colors when painting cars, but mostly because of the teaching of some of the best color artists in the country. All would go along with you to a point. But not entirely. Some of the substitutions are for cleaner color. One example was the substitution of Winsor Red for Alizarin Crimson at times. Add white to Alizarin Crimson and try and get a clean pink. No matter what you put around it, it just won't happen. Cad Reds are even worse. It has to do with the chemical reactions o the properties in the colors themselves. You are making paint now, check this out. Cadmium oxides almost immediately when titanium is introduced. Read Ralph Meyer on color.This makes for dirty color. I don't want to get off into a lot of technical stuff, but my point is not to make wholesale changes to a palette. I am talking one color most of the time substituted for a particular reason in the subject being painted.

    I have no desire to argue with you. We need to agree to disagree, but I am not a hack playing around and trying to act like a know it all. I am far from being the best artist in the world, but limiting a palette is an excellent way of painting, but it's very name tells you something. It is limited. Theoretically we should be able to make any color from the three primaries, but we all know that does not work. It only works with light, but we don't paint with light. There has to be substitutions, and modifiers at times. I have mentioned Anders Zorn a number of times. That is one of the premier limited palettes and yet even he would have agreed with what I am saying here.

    I have done nothing on this site but support you and your methods. I have held my tongue more times than I can count, not from your comments, but others. Now this is a second disagreement we are having and normally I would say fine. I do not come on sites like this for any reason other than maybe learning something and helping others. I have no desire to undermine anything you have here with your methods, teaching or anything else. So if you would prefer I do not offer any help to others, just say the word. If I had the computer equipment to do a hangout with you, I would love to debate you on these issues and a few visual aids, but I don't have them. Sorry. It is your site so you say what you prefer.
    With all respect,
    AZPainter
    [Deleted User]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] admin
    edited May 2013
    @AZPainter I think some of the members here have made it seem like Mark has a problem with people disagreeing with him or posting other methods or even methods which directly contradict something he said. I haven't figured out how to address this politely but it's simply not true. Believe me, my dad welcomes any and all comments, that's why he said he simply disagrees (and will continue the debate, I'm sure, until there's none left to be had), but it's not personal and even from a business perspective, we both welcome ALL input so long as it's not abusive or something crazy like that! Mark is also not the end-all-be-all on everything — not by a long shot — and he knows it.

    I think the next time a member here jumps on someone for not preaching the Carder Orthodoxy I'm going to add my 2¢ to the discussion, because clearly it's set a tone where some people feel uncomfortable just talking about art without worrying constantly, which is not what we want.
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    Robert, yes only interested in debating someone who takes the other side.

    AZ, show me the Grand Canyon sunrise color I can not mix.

    And AZ, don't take it personal, nothing wrong with a good debate.
    marieb
  • First, there is nothing personal here as far as I am concerned. I have no problem with debate. But when it appears has a attitude of there is only one answer when it comes to art, I'm sorry, but that does not make for a reasonable debate just as two people on the same side trying to debate. I know what David Quinn said, but I also noticed he said you would debate your position until there was nothing left, or words to that effect.

    Come to Arizona, since I can't bring the Canyon to you, and I guarantee you won't be able to match the colors I can show you with your palette without adding or substituting a color or two. Heck I can do it in my studio with a model in natural north light. Not being a smartalec or insulting, just stating fact. I have a model, a redhead, that has a under color in her skin color that is almost pearlescent and trust me, your palette will not come close to it. There are greens, grays and pinks in it that just are not on the Carder Palette or mixed with it. What is the problem with adjusting to fit the subject? I am saying this while admitting as I have done many times here. I have used your palette or very similar (substituting Burnt Sienna for Burnt Umber) for years. The thing is I do not chain myself to this palette just to prove a point when one change can make all the difference in the world.

    I am not here to argue or create any sort of discomfort or uneasiness for anyone. What's funny to me is, we agree on much more than we disagree with. I have only said there are many colors to make skin color and at the same time I recommended using your method. I only spoke the truth. You recently said you would debate me forever or good luck trying to convince you about rules in art and yet it seems this palette is one rule that must stand. So which is it? Rules? or No rules? (Speaking of art)

  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    edited May 2013
    I am positive I can mix any Grand Canyon color. Positive, 100%. Scientific fact, which you can call a rule if you like.

    I believe in all kinds of rules, for instance, yellow plus red makes orange, this is a fact. If I believe a fact is true, should I not say so?

    It is also a fact that I can mix ANY red head flesh tone, or ANY Grand Canyon color. Mail me a swatch of this special Grand Canyon color you are talking about. I will send an EXACT duplicate back to you in the mail made with my pallet. I am serious, mail it to me.

    mariebcynthiagwilson
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] admin
    edited May 2013
    EDIT: Mark beat me to it.

    There is definitely only one answer to the question "is Mark's palette capable of mixing all the colors AZPainter's palette is capable of mixing" simply because that's a yes or no question, so there's no way around that. The only way to find out definitively after both sides have stated their claim is to test it out. You can't bring the Canyon to Mark, but you said your palette can match colors his can't, so there you go: paint a strip of one such color on a scrap of canvas, dry it, varnish it, and send it off.

    I'd be especially curious about the grays you say are unobtainable with his palette, because while I know there is no paint that can represent, for instance, a bright blue LED light shining right into your eyeball, grays aren't extreme in value or saturation. So I would definitely include that one in your test.
    cynthiagwilson

  • Yes, watch all the videos on color mixing. You're making it way more complicated for yourself. You don't need to think in terms of "I'll use umber when I need a deep shadow color" or "I'll use ultramarine to give it that moonlit look" or whatever it is. Brown makes things browner, blue makes things bluer, and so on, that's it. The brown is dark so if you add it to a color that's lighter than brown, the color will get darker as well as browner. Yellow is bright, so if you add it to a color that is darker than yellow, the color will get brighter as well as brighter. And so on... etc.

    Thank you David. Been watching and getting some good insight.
    I'll have to try the approach with flesh tones and see what kind of mess I'll make...

    Thanks again.
    -V
  • Mark, David PM an address for me. I accept your challenge.
    Mark what you stated is true red and yellow do make orange. Your Alizarin Crimson (which is also a primary of mine) and Cad yellow pale (is that correct) will not make the same orange as Winsor Red and Cad Yellow light. That to is a fact. And that is my point.

    The models skin tones I mentioned, I have tried many times using north light (as is my usual) and an identical palette to yours, just would not make the colors I was seeing. James Reynolds painted her once and he had to change his palette to get the colors. (this was a paint together in my studio with several other artists. Everyone of us wound up matching the color of her skin, and it took basically the same colors by each of us. Our normal palettes would not match all the colors in her skin. You are really surprising me with this conversation and lack of acceptance that there are other ways of making colors. somehow that misses the point of art in ways. At least I am getting that feeling. I though good art needed flexibility to grow. Maybe I am wrong on that also.
    Send me an address.
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    Flexibility is good, but not falsehood :-)

    address sent
    cynthiagwilson
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    AZ, I have painted 100's of portraits, in every imaginable lighting, red heads and everything else. I used to mix all my color from life with the model sitting before me and I have never had a single color I could not get.

    But all of this is besides the point, as I said before this is simple color science. Take a gray as you mentioned. If I put a swatch of that on a pallet, and I try to match it with my 5 colors. It is not possible for me not to be able to match it EXACTLY. Why... because of the six questions plus darker and lighter - so eight questions. That's it. At no point will I be stuck, not possible. I simply ask the questions and make the adjustment until I can no longer see any difference. If I do see a difference, I add the appropriate color of the five until I get there.

    This is what I object to, the falsehood I am trying to shoot down... There are no special colors. None, zero. All color, the billions and billions all fall within the color wheel and are therefore attainable using just the 7 colors I suggest. Saying that these special colors are not attainable is false and untrue and I think it is important for artists to understand that.
  • mariebmarieb -
    edited May 2013
    VTA go to the "draw mix paint" website...not the forum and watch the video's, they are great. If you have bought one of Mark's dvd's and joined the forum, then you are obviously interested in using Mark's method of training the eye to see colour and mix colour. Stick with a limited Pallet , make a colour checker,follow directions for mixing paint etc and balance your light, and enjoy the result. ;)
    cynthiagwilson
  • You can mix the colors you get with Mark's palette with other pigments for sure — most people do — but the question here is whether or not Mark's palette is capable of mixing all the colors that other palettes can. I personally don't accept any statement that doesn't make sense to me as fact if my experience has demonstrated that the statement may not be true, and at the same time, I won't (rather, I shouldn't) insist I'm right until I've truly demonstrated in a scientific way that I'm right.

    I have not experimented with paint as much as most people here, but I do have an understanding of it to some extent and I have painted a few paintings, and I have never, ever encountered a color that I couldn't get with Mark's palette using the simple process he teaches. I have also seen Mark paint countless paintings and have never once seen him unable to mix a color. I've also never seen him use any colors besides the palette he recommends. But, like I said, I haven't actually tried to prove him wrong as the issue never came up since I never had a color I couldn't mix. So I'm interested to see what the outcome of this test is. Please do include one of those grays in your test if you don't mind.

    So yes, there is a healthy "lack of acceptance" here, but also a willingness to be proven wrong, hence the open invitation to test your assertion. I think "refusal to acknowledge demonstrable facts" is a bad thing, but not educated skepticism. For now there are simply two people who disagree based on their experiences — nothing more, nothing less. No problem. Once the test is complete, then we'll have more. :)>-

    I really, truly don't expect anyone to assume Mark is right or assume you're right. I think it's good to test things. Endless debate is only good for metaphysics and the definition of the word "art". :D
    marieb
  • marieb said:

    VTA go to the "draw mix paint" website...not the forum and watch the video's, they are great. If you have bought one of Mark's dvd's and joined the forum, then you are obviously interested in using Mark's method of training the eye to see colour and mix colour. Stick with a limited Pallet , make a colour checker,follow directions for mixing paint etc and balance your light, and enjoy the result. ;)

    Thanks marieb. I've been watching all day and will buy the portrait DVD.
    I am interested in learning as much as I can and trying different approaches.

    Thanks again.
    -V
  • Apparently I am being called a liar here. I am a bit taken aback that you are taken on the argument of losers by nae calling and false accusations. I am also stunned that something so simple has escalated to a point like this. You can call it a falsehood, but the real facts of the matter there are colors that many palettes cannot make exact duplicates of. To say other wise is a falsehood. You own son practically admitted this when he said, " I've also never seen him use any colors besides the palette he recommends."

    You may think you are the worlds greatest authority on color, but there are thousands of far better artists than you or I that would laugh in your face. A few I learned from. That said, I have repeatedly admitted I use the same palette as you recommend, most of the time and by most of the time I would say 85-90%, but if you really painted and like d it which in a Hangout you said you didn't like painting, you would know there are ties every painter runs into situations they have never seen before and a real artist adapts. Refusal to do so in ignorant or close minded. Take your pick. I am about solving problems, not being bull headed to say my way is the only way.

    I fully understand how you go about mixing color. I do the same as does every artist I know, so that is no big deal, it's more of a so what. I can do the same, using your palette and come close, but no matter how close, it is still not the same exact color. There is nothing wrong with your palette, I have never said there was, but it has the same limitations as every limited palette every conceived. I have a news flash, Mark, you are not the only artist who knows something about color. You are good, I would even say well above many, but THE authority? Not even close.

    I love how you guys claim you are so scientific and painted hundreds of portrait. Great. I am happy for you, but when I tell you I have painted hundreds of Grand Canyons, and hundreds of landscapes,seascapes, interiors, still lifes, I have learned a few things and when it comes to landscapes you haven't a clue. Let me up the ante on this challenge. How about I paint your Landscape and use your palette and see who likes which one. Let's see if the mutual admiration Society has the nerve to speak their mind then. Okay?
    I hate it when someone pisses me off over something so stupid.
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    edited May 2013
    I never said you were a liar in the sense that you are knowingly lying. I am just stating my views on color science.

    No need to argue, I can either match your colors with my pallet or I can not.

    In regards to comparing my paintings to yours, now you are no longer talking science, there are no right or wrong answers there. Even if I was a horrible artist, my limited pallet can either match your colors or they can not.
    sue_deutscher
  • A pithy debate on color mixing is interesting, the ugly turn to interpersonal friction and animosity...not so much.
    Castilloopnwyder[Deleted User]cynthiagwilson
  • Just do the challenge but please don't get pissed. I enjoy all of the incite I receive from both of you, Mark and AZ. We base our perspective on our experience so put it to the challenge, match the color and then shake on it, please.
    opnwydercynthiagwilson
  • Mark_CarderMark_Carder admin
    I really am not the least bit upset, I agree with Robert, its all good.

    I have a video about my palette. In it I say something like "you can mix any color in the world with just these colors..." So when AZ says something to the contrary, I am only posting that I disagree with that. Nothing personal on my end at all, I am just debating the point.

    I have been through this before with other artists, it has always been fun. I ask for the swatch not to be smirk, I just know that in the end it is the only way to prove it.

    AZ, if one of these unmixable colors exists in tube form, just tell me what it is and I can order it myself online. Once I get it, I will mix it. I can even make a video of me doing it.

    I assure you if I can't mix it, I will admit it and post the video in the forum and then take down the one where I talk about my favorite colors.
    mariebcynthiagwilson
  • edited May 2013
    No getting mad allowed. Play nice. We must be able to disagree, debate and argue without anger. Remember to speak as if we are all in a room together. We COULD have this discussion/disagreement in person without anyone being mad. We MUST be able to do it here too. (I'm not saying anyone is saying anything wrong, it just started to smell a little angry in here)
    marieb
  • Shirley, did you just create the next "reality" TV show??
    Mark_CarderLizONeal
  • mariebmarieb -
    edited May 2013

    Boy-o-boy, this is a weird month of May on this forum. Once again, I feel compelled to admonish people I greatly admire. Please stop...please. This is not evolving into a productive situation, but rather, I fear it is devolving into a lose-lose situation for all the forum members. I could go through the various comments on this thread and point out where each side is guilty of poor communication by having expressed themselves carelessly; and that, as it often does, has led to misinterpretations, false assumptions, and taking things personally.

    Well said CharleyBoy. I know that being Irish I express myself differently, and could easily misinterpret what someone else is saying....AZPainter you and Mark are expressing opinions,you don't agree with and Mark does not agree with you...that's all. Please don'd make me come over to USA and sort you two out. I am married to a Drummer, my son is a Drummer and my Grandson looks like he may go in that direction too !!! I have a "Degree" in sorting out troublesome Drummers, I am sure it will work with Artists too.. ..... :))
    cynthiagwilson
  • mariebmarieb -
    edited May 2013

    You may think you are the worlds greatest authority on color, but there are thousands of far better artists than you or I that would laugh in your face. A few I learned from. That said, I have repeatedly admitted I use the same palette as you recommend, most of the time and by most of the time I would say 85-90%, but if you really painted and like d it which in a Hangout you said you didn't like painting, you would know there are ties every painter runs into situations they have never seen before and a real artist adapts. Refusal to do so in ignorant or close minded. Take your pick. I am about solving problems, not b

    I have a news flash, Mark, you are not the only artist who knows something about color. You are good, I would even say well above many, but THE authority? Not even close.

    I love how you guys claim you are so scientific and painted hundreds of portrait. Great. I am happy for you, but when I tell you I have painted hundreds of Grand Canyons, and hundreds of landscapes,seascapes, interiors, still lifes, I have learned a few things and when it comes to landscapes you haven't a clue. Let me up the ante on this challenge. How about I paint your Landscape and use your palette and see who likes which one. Let's see if the mutual admiration Society has the nerve to speak their mind then. Okay?
    I hate it when someone pisses me off over something so stupid.



    AZPainter , I have read your comments again. You really are insulting to Mark, and downright Insulting to all the rest of the Forum members, by calling us" The Mutual Admiration Society" . These types of comments spoil the threads for the rest of us. Marie
    [Deleted User]Castillo
  • edited May 2013
    Marieb, things get said in heat of the moment on all forums, you have to take it all with a grain of salt and cut people some slack. AZ has been a truly great asset to the forum and if he got "pissed off" (his words) then it's not the end of the world. Talking on the internet is hard...gotta give people a little more room.
    edwardCastillocynthiagwilson
  • opnwyder I suppose you are right...I am too impulsive. AZPainter, no offence intended, just letting off steam... The forum has been a little turbulent lately, I look forward to checking in to see what everyone has been up to, and dont like to see people getting upset....then again I wouldn't want to upset anyone either ! time to shut up and go to bed .. #-o P.S nice to have your calming influence .
  • AZPainter said:

    VTA. Opnwyder is exactly right, but there are so many combinations to make flesh tones and many you would not even imagine. I have painted a lot of figures and still do and I use whatever it takes. You are working with some very grayed down colors with what you listed and there is nothing wrong with that, but it limits where you can take it. For instance, using Venetian Red for a rosier color on a nose or cheek try a touch of Alizarin or in a more sunlight area, working towards a highlight try Winsor Red. This makes incredible clean pinks and a touch of Thalo Yellow green will soften it without going muddy looking as Umbers will. Sap green is not a good color for anything really unless you use a permanent sap green and even then it's tinting strength is not strong enough.

    I used to make a full range of flesh colors for Caucasian, African American/ African or Hispanic skin tones using Rembrandt Brown Madder Alizarin, Thalo Yellow green and white. I used Ultramarine Blue as a modifier for Sometimes a little Cad Lemon on some oriental and Nordic skin tones, but both the blue and yellow were used very sparingly. It was so versatile, and could be manipulated in color, value and temperature. I think evey figure painter I knew used this combination more often than not. But for some reason Talens, makers of Rembrandt oils stopped making it. I'm surprise the country did not hear the collective scream from artists who painted figures. It wasn't our only mix, but it was a great one. I could do two different paintings and just moving towards the Brown Madder Alizarin or towards the yellow green or the two modifiers and white, I could paint totally different skin tones.

    A good commonly and fairly versatile mix is Cad Red Light, Yellow Ochre and either Ultramarine or a mixed green of Cad. Yellow added to the blue and then used sparingly in the red yellow white mixture. Personally, I would prefer a clean Permanent Green light instead or Thalo Yellow green You could also use Alizarin Crimson instead, for your red, or W/N Permanent Rose or Winsor Red. Anders Zorn Made beautiful skin tones with Cad. Red, Yellow Ochre and black and white! I could go on all night, but my best recommendation is to find a combination that works on one painting you are doing at a time and stick with it. The next one will likely need another different combination. What Mark recommends is your best starting point. Keep it simple and you will be much happier just starting out.


    Will try this out
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] admin
    edited May 2013
    @tjs You know a bit about color gamuts and color spaces and so forth if I remember correctly, so this might make sense to you: the printer is a great analogy. If you look at the color gamut of a printer, it might be limited — for instance, it might not be able to print a glowing neon pink — but ALL the colors it can't reproduce are OUTSIDE the color gamut of the printer. There are no "holes" WITHIN the color gamut. Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense from a logical or physical standpoint for a color gamut to have holes in it, which is why color gamuts don't have holes in them. The limit of any given palette is, in a sense, its color gamut.
    [Deleted User]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] admin
    edited May 2013
    @Kingston, I see you disagree about the color gamut thing. Could you show me a color gamut with a hole in it? By "hole", I mean a space of out-of-gamut color surrounded on all sides by colors that are in-gamut. I realize a real representation of color gamut would be three dimensional, but that's fine — the three dimensional equivalent of the theoretical holes I'm talking about would be a cavity of space inside the 3D color gamut.

    @Robert This isn't just art related, but in my opinion it is never wise to trust the experts, including Mark. Experts are often wrong, for all kinds of reasons. It's better to get as much information as you can from them, experiment and prove to yourself that the information is accurate (sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't), and then instead of simply knowing what so-and-so had to say about a certain subject, you truly understand the subject. So in this case, I can't really say why people do what they do (I could speculate but I'd probably be wrong), but I can try my best to prove Mark wrong. Even though I think he's right, in order to be sure, I have to try my very very best to find a fault in his argument. And if I fail to do that, then I can say with more certainty that he's right — not because he's an expert, but because I verified his claims myself. Does that make sense?
  • @Kingston I agree with everything you just said except that the doughnut shape is irrelevant (and that the conversation is useless at this point). That's why I'm confused as to why you disagreed with my statement. If gamuts don't come in doughnut shapes, why is that? It's because mixing colors is only limited at the extremes — there can't be "special" colors within the gamut that are unmixable… there would be no logical or physical explanation for such a hole, or at least, no one here has been able to provide such an explanation. On the other hand, an explanation for why gamuts don't come in doughnut shapes, and thus an explanation of why you can mix any color except colors beyond the extremes of a given palette, is very straightforward.

    If you don't want to talk about it that's okay — I'm sorry I called you out specifically and dragged you into it. I'm definitely not bickering, just discussing!
  • Right, but with a limited palette (in this case, Mark's seven pigments with no additional pigments), there is a "gamut". Maybe it's not called that, but it means the same thing: a range of possible colors. Sorry, maybe it was a bad analogy, but all I meant was that all the colors that his palette can't produce are beyond the extremes of his base colors, not somewhere in the middle. Any conceivable gray would be in the middle somewhere.
    cynthiagwilson
  • I am not talking about extreme colors here, like traffic cone hot fluorescent red. If you are doing work with extreme colors like that then you will need those extreme colors.

    But any other color I can mix PERFECTLY with my five (plus phthalo blue and cad red when rarely needed).

  • I have very little to contribute here but there are actual physics and biology that underly color and I thought it might be interesting to post a link about that. Keep in mind that this is speaking purely about EMF and our ability to perceive EMF (as waves) rather than specific pigments and subtractive mixing of color in oil paint, but it's still interesting.

    http://physics.info/color/
  • I would but it wouldn't be much a of a debate as I'm with you on this one.
    The limited pallette takes out all the complication.

    Who wants to debate this with me in a Hangout, it would fun! Big pallet vs limited.

  • An interesting artist to speak on this topic at a Hangout discussion might be Karin Jurik. She uses approximately 2-6 versions of each color on her palette - usually about 50 colors, and her work is beautiful. It would be interesting to know her reasons for using such a varied palette - I don't know if it's because she feels some colors can't be achieved by a basic palette, or whether she finds it faster than mixing. Here's her blog site...

    karinjurick.blogspot.com/
    edwardopnwyder
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